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Bush veto keeps torture techniques on the board

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Bush veto keeps torture techniques on the board

Post by shammy on Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:09 pm

US PRESIDENT George Bush has used his veto to halt a congressional effort to limit the CIA's latitude to subject terrorism suspects to harsh interrogation techniques.

The bill would have explicitly prohibited methods such as waterboarding. This technique, in which restrained prisoners are threatened with drowning, has been much criticised.

The veto deepens the President's battle with assertive Democrats in Congress over issues at the heart of his legacy.

Announcing the veto in his weekly radio address, Mr Bush unflinchingly defended an interrogation program that has prompted critics to accuse him not only of authorising torture previously but also of refusing to ban it in the future.

"Because the danger remains," he said, referring to threats from al-Qaeda and other groups, "we need to ensure our intelligence officials have all the tools they need to stop the terrorists. This is no time for Congress to abandon practices that have a proven track record of keeping America safe."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/bush-veto-keeps-torture-techniques-on-the-board/2008/03/09/1204998279243.html
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Re: Bush veto keeps torture techniques on the board

Post by Da Blonde on Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:27 pm

I have a lot of words to describe how I feel, but as this is a decent and respectable forum, I will restrain myself and just sigh..............
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Re: Bush veto keeps torture techniques on the board

Post by Mohamed on Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:07 am

Yes Da Blonde, Sigh me too and Thank you

Faith leaders implored Bush to end torture

"
...........................................................................
...........................................................................

The experience of humanity is clear: once torture has been permitted, it will spread. It will not be confined to rare cases. It will be broadly applied, despite all efforts to hold it in check. A society that embraces torture must inevitably accept moral breakdown as the outcome of its decision.

America's historic answer is aligned with the view of communities of faith: torture must be repudiated absolutely. There can be no exceptions to this rule. It is a rule that unites religious conscience with reason. As religious leaders, we are committed to protecting the life and dignity of every human person.

The public debate surrounding torture has focused on narrow questions of effectiveness. Yet even a test of efficacy must measure more than supposed short-term benefits, however unlikely even those may be. It must test how the use of these tools affects our nation's reputation in the world abroad. It must ask whether a reputation for abusive interrogation undermines alliances upon which our security must rest and serves as a recruiting tool for the very people who would harm us. How can an instrument of defense be effective if its use causes us to surrender fundamental values and degrades our self-understanding as a nation? The tools we use must reflect our religious values and most cherished ideals.

...............................................................................
..............................................................................."

http://www.wfn.org/2008/02/msg00195.html

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Re: Bush veto keeps torture techniques on the board

Post by Mohamed on Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:45 pm

Trying to understand ...

House Vote #1160 --- Dec 13, 2007 222-119 The numbers are not encouraging!

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2007-1160&sort=party



"It is fundamentally un-American when our president vetoes laws against torture," said Anthony Romero, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union. "The president's veto sends a message to the world that despite Congress' actions, our country will continue to engage in this inhumane and heinous conduct when we should be affirming unequivocally and in one voice that torture and abuse will stop and never happen again. No one is above the rule of law, including the president. Congress should hold firm and persist in trying to get an anti-torture bill signed into law."

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/torture/34389prs20080308.html


Most Americans Oppose Torture Techniques :

May 27, 2004 http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Polls/torture_poll_040527.html


A majority of Americans consider waterboarding a form of torture, but some of those say it's OK for the U.S. government to use the technique, according to a poll released Tuesday.

Asked whether they think waterboarding is a form of torture, more than two-thirds of respondents, or 69 percent, said yes; 29 percent said no.
Asked whether they think the U.S. government should be allowed to use the procedure to try to get information from suspected terrorists, 58 percent said no; 40 percent said yes.

Nov 6, 2007 http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/06/waterboard.poll/



The polling, in the United States and eight of its closest allies, found that in Canada, Mexico and Germany people are divided on whether torture is ever justified. Most people opposed torture under any circumstances in Spain and Italy.

Dec 9, 2005 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320

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Re: Bush veto keeps torture techniques on the board

Post by Mohamed on Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:58 pm

Naive, I was shocked!

When examining my "roots" in New York and New England, I discovered that Indian captives were skinned alive and dragged through the streets of New Amsterdam (New York City) in the 1640s. Scalping enabled Indian bounty hunters to be paid.


In northern California where I now live the same grueling history exists. Bret Harte wrote in 1860 that little children and old women were mercilessly stabbed and their skulls crushed by axes, "old women . . . lay weltering in blood, their brains dashed out . . . while infants . . . with their faces cloven with hatchets and their bodies ghastly wounds" lay nearby.

My studies of brutality in Massachusetts prisons in 1981 concluded (in Walpole State Prison, Massachusetts: An Exercise in Torture), "a clear pattern and history of systematic torture including withholding water, heat, bedding, medical care, and showers; imposition of hazards such as flooding cells, placing foreign matter in food, igniting clothes and bedding, spraying with mace and tear gas; regular physical assaults and beatings; and forcing prisoners to lie face down, naked and handcuffed to one another . . . on freezing . . . outdoor ground while being kicked and beaten." This was two decades before the Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo revelations.

http://www.brianwillson.com/awoltortureamvalue.html

Obviously Torture has been an historical practice.

Sigh ...NOW I Know too about Torture: America's Brutal Prisons ... I can not post links

Sigh...This explain the horrors that were committed in Iraq!

A great Egyptian poet, Ahmad Shawqi, mentioned in a line of verse, “Nations are none other than the ethical systems that support them. When that system goes they will soon follow.”

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Re: Bush veto keeps torture techniques on the board

Post by Da Blonde on Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:33 pm

Yeah, Mohamed, it is shocking.. Have you ever read "Enemy Combatant" by Moazzam Begg? He had been in Guantanamo for about 2 years, some things are so tough to "grasp", the heart just refuses to understand it.

In one chapter the American Lawyer says:
The treatment of prisoners on the USA mainland is probably worse than you guys (in Guantanamo Bay) have it, although your conditions are much poorer than anything I have ever seen on death row in the past 20 years. BUt now they have moved clearly into the realm of torture, and I don't mean just psychologically. I have spoken to detainees who have been sexually abused, raped and tortured. And God knows what is happening to the ones held as "Ghost"detainees, in places like Egypt and Diego Garcia- and who knows where else"

and another quote, from the same lawyer:

"In the US they have always hated black people, but never feared them. During the Cold War, they feared the Soviets, but never hated the. With the Muslim world, the fear AND they hate you."
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